Unfortunately, it took several comments from Mike before I understood what he was trying to get across. (Yes, sometimes – perhaps often, depending on who you ask – I’m a bit slow.) So, I’m going to post a few of Mike’s comments, then both of our comments as we zoom in on this topic in the discussion.
Here are the relevant comments:
Mike: I don’t believe that “breaking bread” was specifically the Lords Supper
It appears to me that Jesus said that when we eat and drink the cup (to me seeming specific to the passover)
Paul also solidified this in 1 cor 11
I do however think a meal amongst brethren was a big part of fellowship that seems to be all but lost among modern day gatherings of saints
Mike: Alan I fully agree and desire to encourage the meal daily weekly and whenever
I live in a part of the state where people are so churchified that those things aren’t normal because its all about Sunday and everything else is extracurricular
Its sad really
Many times I feel compelled to go back to religious edifices but just can’t bring myself to do it because I just want to yell WHY IS EVERYONE SILENT
I never meant though that the corinthians were not eating the right stuff as much as I don’t believe that the Lords supper was ever a monthly or weekly event as much as something commerating the Lord as the passover lamb at passover
But that’s just speculation all based on the “this cup…..this bread” thing
Mike: Forgive me if no one else saw that either but that is what I was referring to that the Lords supper seems to be the new covenant passover meal
Alan: The last supper that Jesus ate with his followers before he was crucified was certainly one of the Passover week meals. Whether it was THE Passover feast or not is still being discussed and debated and argued. Either way, though, the authors of Scripture do not emphasize the Passover features, and when Paul or Jude write about the shared meals among the church, they don’t mention the Passover at all. While this might be excused for a Jewish audience (since they would certainly understand the significance of Passover), a Gentile audience would need to have things explained. 1 Corinthians 11 would be the perfect place for Paul to explain that the Gentile believers in Corinth were not correctly observing the Passover.
Mike: I think that paul expressing “this cup” was letting the corinthians know it was the passover
Just cause they were gentiles doesn’t mean they didn’t know the passover
As for the jude thing it appears that the love feast could be nothing more than a charitable feast for those less fortunate
I say this cause it wasn’t called the Lords supper and there was no mention of “this cup”
I think there is a distinction between the Lords supper and regular communions
Is the word communion IN the bible?
BTW I don’t think this has any concrete conclusion just like the pagan holidays vs jewish holy days thing
And though I 100% believe we should observe Gods Holy days over things like christmas easter and the such I don’t think any of that is salvivic
I hope we are just sharpening each other and growing closer to Christ together
Alan: I appreciate the discussion about the relationship between the Lord’s Supper / Communion / Eucharist and the Passover. I’m wondering, in what way(s) do you (all) think Jesus continued the meal as the Passover and in what way(s) do you think he changed it?
Mike: I would say that the Lords supper appears to be the “new” passover for it symbolizes a more universal complete passover
I don’t think anything changed as much as things are now complete in Him
Its kind of all still speculation to a point to sayy 100% without a doubt
I do however believe that the Lords Supper is the new covenant passover not to be confused with daily/regular breaking of bread amongst the saints
Even where the bible says about coming together on the first day of the week and breaking bread as a custom I believe the point of that statement in scripture is not the when (first day of the week) of coming together but the what (breaking bread) that is the “custom” of the coming together of the saints
now there is also a mention of sacrificing to idols (which I can’t imagine they did every day) in first cor 10 and the mention of the blood and body are in verse 16 and it seems to be in context of a certain religious event as opposed to something done often since paul (though speaking to gentiles) talks about israel (albeit in the flesh)
Now if we just pull 1 cor 10:16 out of context it may seem like a regular thing but in context it would appear it was comparing it to other sacrificial events both pagan and jewish
I have nothing specific to say about the term eucharist because I don’t know why we have to have a non-biblical term to describe something when we have many biblical things to do so……..just sayin
Communion (coming together in Christ and having all things in common) is a great ideology that no one desires to live
Put that in scripture……..how we live it =D
That’s all I got for now
Ill probably think of more as the pot stirs I’m sure
Alan: I re-read the passage in Exodus describing the purposes and practices associated with the Passover festival week. I didn’t see anything about the Messiah. Do you know if that’s somewhere else in the Old Testament?
Mike: Well since Jesus is our passover lamb and we are partaking of Him I think everything in the passover speaks of the messiah
Have you ever partaken in a messianic sedar?
Its awesom the correlation between the whole exodus account and the story of our salvation in the messiah
Alan: Yes, I’m familiar with the Seder. Do you know anything about its history or development?
Mike: yes alan I understand that the sedar is not strictly jewish and specifically from the exodus account
Its kind of like christmas and easter
However through that practice (when coupled with scripture) we can walk through the exodus and passing over of the firstborns
However we must admit that the Passover is pointing to christ
It is also good to understand that much of the laws of Judaism bear striking resemblance to the code of Hammurabi
This is why I try not to be too dogmatic about my views on Easter and Christmas
Alan: I understand. The synagogue is similar. It was an inter-testimental development of Judaism, but Jesus used the synagogue, and the church began meeting in a similar way to the way the Jews met as the synagogue. In fact, both the similarities and the differences can tell us about what was important to the church.
I think the same would be true for the Passover. Both the similarities and the differences between the Last Supper / the shared church meals and the Passover (that had developed from Exodus) can tell us what was important to both Jesus and the early church. For example, if I’m correct that for the early church all shared meals were an expression of that Last Supper (Passover), then that is an expression that Christ (the awaited Messiah of the Passover) is now always present with them in every aspect of life.
Mike: Maybe this is part of what paul is talking about when he tells us not to judge people on these things
As far as feasts days seasons etc but rather to let people do to the Lord what they feel they are led to do even if its taking what they know and making it about Him
I fully agree with the synagogue thing and I try to explain that to people but its hard until you study it out for yourself to see that everyone had opportunity to teach speak etc and the way of the house to house church made it just that more personal
You know what my conclusion is?
Happy Passover brother =D