You said that the apostles “worked full time in the ministry”. Since you suggest that Peter and his family would have taken some of the money given to the needy, I’m assuming that you mean that they only did ministry work. You could be right. But, the text does not tell us that. Either argument (that they did or did not work with their hands in Jerusalem in order to support themselves and their families) is an argument from silence. Thus, I would not include Acts 4-6 in a discussion of financial support for either apostles or elders.

I think that the fact that Paul accepted financial support only from churches where he was not currently “ministering” is very important to a study of Christians being supported. Are you suggesting that this should be the practice for pastors today?

It seems that when Paul received support from another city, he would accept it. When he did not receieve support from another city, he would work with his hands to support himself. But, he did not (and he told the Corinthians that he would not) accept support from the believers in the city that he was currently working – and he was doing hard ministry work and usually hard work with his hands as well.

You asked, “Are you suggesting that it *could* be wrong for a Christian to accept payment for teaching ministerial training in a seminary?” I’m suggesting that teaching in a college, university, or seminary is not the same as to “ministerial training” in the scriptural sense, even though an education is usually equivocated to “ministerial training” today. I hope that helps.

-Alan

“In your study of Acts 4-6 and the money flowing through the hands of the apostles, did you find any indication that they kept any of this money for themselves?”

Yes, I already explained that the apostles in Acts 5-6 worked full time in the ministry. Acts 4:35 says that the money was distributed to anyone who had need. I’m sure, for example, that Peter and his family had need while Peter worked full time in the ministry of prayer and the word. Do you agree or disagree?

“Paul often accepted support from churches (as in 2 Cor 11:8-9 and Phil 4) – but not from the church where he was currently working. I think that’s very interesting, but again, how does this affect pastors?”

We need to consider all that the New Testament teaches about financial support for ministers, even if we don’t see a direct connection. In this case, I’m examining your premise that 1 Corinthians 9 teaches that only traveling apostles should get paid because the traveling apostles were away from their non-ministerial work at home. That might not directly relate to pastors, but I think we need to carefully examine this for background studies.

I don’t see how your premise applies to Paul. Paul could make tents wherever he traveled. Not only that, evidently Paul was great at making money by making tents. For example, Acts 20:33-35 teaches that Paul’s tent making paid not only his own expenses but also the expenses of his assistants. Regardless, Paul sometimes accepted money to pay for his expenses when he could have made tents to pick up his own expenses. Likewise, sometimes Paul saw that the best ministry strategy involved making tents for funds and other times Paul saw that the best ministry strategy was to focus full time on the ministry of prayer and the word. Do you agree or disagree?

‘I do not insist that a Christian can get paid for teaching ministerial training in a seminary. I do suggest that being an educator is a type of “working with your hands”, which is completely different than the type of “teaching” that all Christians are called to do. By the way, I do both, and I only accept pay for one.’

Could you please clarify this? Are you suggesting that it *could* be wrong for a Christian to accept payment for teaching ministerial training in a seminary?

Jim

Thank you for continuing this discussion. In your study of Acts 4-6 and the money flowing through the hands of the apostles, did you find any indication that they kept any of this money for themselves? I noticed particularly that Acts 4:35 that this money was distributed to the needy.

Also, I agree with you that “ministry work” is hard work. I also agree that we are not all called to do the same type of “ministry work”. So, while the apostles were doing the “hard work” in prayer and the word, it seems that others were appointed to the “hard work” of serving food to widows. I’m not sure how this affects our discussion of 1 Cor 9 and whether or not that passage can be used to justify paying a salary to a pastor.

Paul often accepted support from churches (as in 2 Cor 11:8-9 and Phil 4) – but not from the church where he was currently working. I think that’s very interesting, but again, how does this affect pastors?

Finally, you asked, “Do you insist that a Christian can get paid for teaching ministerial training in a seminary while a Christian cannot get paid for teaching ministerial training in a church meeting?” I do not insist that a Christian can get paid for teaching ministerial training in a seminary. I do suggest that being an educator is a type of “working with your hands”, which is completely different than the type of “teaching” that all Christians are called to do. By the way, I do both, and I only accept pay for one.

-Alan

I appreciate your patience with me, and I hope to look further into related topics so that I can better analyze this. For example, how do we define the difference between a traveling apostle versus an apostle who moves every couple of years? I think this relates to the apostles in Acts, which we need to study for background to 1 Corinthians. And I specifically want to look at Acts 4:32-6:7. And another point is that I have major objections if you insist that a Christian can get paid for teaching ministerial training in a seminary while a Christian cannot get paid for teaching ministerial training in a church meeting.

Let's look at Acts 4:32-37 & 5:42-6:7 (NIV):

4:32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had.

4:33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all.

4:34 There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales

4:35 and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.

4:36 Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means Son of Encouragement),

4:37 sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles' feet.

5:42 Day after day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Christ.

6:1 In those days when the number of disciples was increasing, the Grecian Jews among them complained against the Hebraic Jews because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution of food.

6:2 So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, "It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables.

6:3 Brothers, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them

6:4 and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word."

6:5 This proposal pleased the whole group. They chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit; also Philip, Procorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas from Antioch, a convert to Judaism.

6:6 They presented these men to the apostles, who prayed and laid their hands on them.

6:7 So the word of God spread. The number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly, and a large number of priests became obedient to the faith.

There are some details that I'm don't know. For example, I'm not sure how much time elapsed between Pentecost in Acts 2 and the persecution in Acts 8. Anyway, we see the apostles in Jerusalem had a lot of money flow through their hands (4:32-37). The apostles focused on teaching and preaching in the temple courts and house to house (5:42). And the apostles felt they needed to focus on their ministry of prayer and the word instead of serving food to elderly women believers (6:17).

This suggests that the apostles focused all of their hard working time on the ministry of prayer and word instead instead of other work. And we don't see the apostles traveling outside Jerusalem until Acts 8:14. So traveling wasn't an apostolic issue until Acts 8:14. This clearly teaches that the apostles moved to Jerusalem, stayed a while in Jerusalem, and they did no work apart from the ministry of prayer and the word. Traveling had nothing do with this.

I also see 2 Corinthians 11:8-9 teaches that Paul accepted personal money from Christians in Macedonia while Paul wouldn't accept personal money from Christians in Corinth. This suggests that Paul addressed a problem in Corinth that didn't exist in all the churches.

And I wish to know. Do you insist that a Christian can get paid for teaching ministerial training in a seminary while a Christian cannot get paid for teaching ministerial training in a church meeting?

I’m sorry for the confusion. Since I had said earlier that apostolic workers (those travelling) could be supported by the church, then I thought that was assumed in my statement that all believers should do ministry work and work with their hands. Of course, apostolic workers can choose to work with their hands (the way Paul did) if they think its best in order not to hinder the gospel.

The reason that apostolic workers can receive support from the church is that they are travelling away from their source of employment.

-Alan

I clarify that I ask the above question so that I can understand the premises of your interpretation.

Jim

Then, why do you say, ‘I believe that Paul calls all believers to “work” in both ways – that is, by serving others and by supporting themselves’?

Or do you modify that statement?

Jim

Yes. I agree with both of your statements. In fact, the point of this post is to show that 1 Cor 9 says that apostolic workers (those travelling away from their place of employment) have the right to be supported by the church. Similarly, in 1 Cor 9, the ones who can be supported are described as “those who proclaim the gospel”, which, in context, would be apostolic workers – those travelling away from their place of employment.

-Alan

Paul clearly teaches that some apostolic ministers have the right to be financially supported for doing hard work in the full time ministry. Do you accept of reject my interpretation?

“My question is, if we can combine these two types of work for pastors, why not for other believers?”

The Bible clearly teaches that some people have the right to financial support for full time ministry while it never comes close to suggesting that all believers have the right to financial support. So without a doubt there is no biblical justification for claiming that all believers have a right to financial support for all hard work in the ministry. Do you agree or disagree?

Jim

Thank you for continuing this discussion. I think I can respond to both of you to help explain my position. I believe that we find Paul using the term “work” for two different types of work. 1) He uses the term “work” for what we would call “ministry work” – the work of discipleship, exhortation, admonishment, service, etc. 2) He uses the term “work” in the sense of “work with your hands” through which people support themselves.

I believe that Paul calls all believers to “work” in both ways – that is, by serving others and by supporting themselves. However, today, we tend to combine the two uses of the term “work” for pastors, such that ministry work becomes working with your hands. My question is, if we can combine these two types of work for pastors, why not for other believers? Instead, I think we need to keep these two types of work separate.

-Alan